Keeping Bees in Cameroon with Dr. Mazi Sanda (029)

Keeping Bees in Cameroon with Dr. Mazi Sanda (029)

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Introduction: Welcome to  2 Million Blossoms the podcast, with host Dr. Kirsten Traynor.  2 Million Blossomsis dedicated to protecting all pollinators from the solitary bee to colorful butterflies, to feisty hummingbirds, and of course, the honeybee. We bring you informative guests to awaken your understanding of the vast diversity of pollinating insects and animals worldwide. Because the more we know about pollinators, the better we can provide their habitats and protect them from disappearing forever. Sit back and listen as Kirsten and her guest share in the passion they feel for all pollinators.

Dr. Kirsten Traynor: On today's show, I get to welcome, bee scientist, Dr. Mazi Sanda from Cameroon. He is currently in Germany as part of PLAN4BEE, a DFG grant looking to establish a network of bee scientists in Germany and four African countries.

Mazi holds a biologists position at the University of Ngaoundere and I probably mispronounced that but I'm doing my best in the north of Cameroon and is fluent in five languages, including English and French. I'm hoping to learn a little more about bee diversity and beekeeping traditions in Cameroon from him during today's show. Mazi, so glad to have you on the  2 Million Blossoms Podcast.

Dr. Mazi Sanda: Thank you very much for having me in this show.

Kirsten: It's a true honor. How did you first get interested in bees? I mean, bees were not always in your life, I take it.

Dr. Mazi Sanda: Yes. That's really a good question. I would say when I was a child, I was really interested with insect in general. I was playing with beetles and then it was really quite amazing. Then when I arrived at the university, when I was doing my bachelor, and then we had some courses on insect, I said, "Wow, that's really good."

For my master, the first year of master we had real course on insects and then insect physiology, insect pollinators at the second year of master, then I said, "Wow, that's what I want to do." When I was in Ngaoundere this is my hometown, there are also so many beekeepers. Before even arriving at the university, my father had a beekeeper who was coming at home with honey and then we were enjoying honey and then I said, "Wow, what is this?"

It was like something totally delicious. Then I wanted to know more about it, and then my father said, "No, you are not a beekeeper. You're still young." Then maybe also that you'll see, when I discover at the university we have the course on beekeeping, I said, "Wow, wonderful." That's how I started everything with bees and working with beekeepers and especially with bees, that's how I started everything.

Kirsten: A love of honey and then a beekeeping course at university. Was that the first time you got to work up close with honeybees?

Mazi: I would say, yes, because it was after the course I had on bees and pollination. That's how I said, "Oh, let me go out." Then that's how I remember what my father was telling me at that time I was at the primary school when the beekeepers was coming at home with honey. Then I said, "Oh, so this is the insect." Then I discover also after that, in my hometown, there are so many beekeepers. That's how I contacted them and then that's how the story started.

Kirsten: What does beekeeping look like in Cameroon? Is it mainly honey robbing from wild living colonies, or are they managed colonies? Are they using what we consider common in the US the Langstroth hives, or are you making hand woven hives? What does it look like?

Mazi: Beekeeping in Cameroon general, it's still at its infancy. It's still traditional beekeeping. I would say maybe 70% to maybe 30% of beekeepers are still traditional beekeepers. The beekeepers in Cameroon are mainly farmers and they're doing also beekeeper as secondary activities. I know that way round you'll have someone who is really doing beekeeping and having agriculture as just a second activity. Especially, it's done as traditional using this grass, this conical hives.

Kirsten: Okay, it's a woven hive where you build a structure?

Mazi: Yes, with herbs or grasses. For the modern one, there is not a lot of Langstroth, we are not using Langstroth there but we're using the Kenyan Top Bar Hives. That's what we're using in Cameroon. Most of beekeepers are using that one, even though there are some slides, some people trying to have Langstroth hive. The main used modern hive is Kenyan Top Bar Hives.

Kirsten: Because that you can fit to any size of material that you have. It's a very simple construction that anybody with a little bit of woodworking skills can make. With your traditional, your woven hives, do they harvest then combs just to the back? They're attached to the grass structure of the hive and you're just cutting out comb?

Mazi: Yes. That's how it's been done. It has like a conical. At the tail they just tied it on the tree branches. During the harvest they will only open from the lead and then just start cutting out the combs. These are for those who are a bit trend. Sometimes some people they just open the entire hive and then take over everything. Nowadays they're not doing it like that anymore. At the beginning, that's how some beekeepers were doing. Today they open from the leads and then they harvest everything, all the combs.

Kirsten: For these traditional hives, are they just hanging the hive out in the trees and hoping that bees move in?

Mazi: Yes.

Kirsten: That a swarm moves in.

Mazi: All the hives are hang on the trees.

Kirsten: Then bees just naturally move in and then they harvest from them. They only harvest a portion so that the colony can recover and they can keep coming back?

Mazi: Yes. It depends on the materials. Sometimes the hive can last two, three years or maximum four years. It depends.

Kirsten: Then they're breaking down with the elements probably. What is the honey taste like? Is it very light honey? Is it dark honey? What are the flavors?

Mazi: In my country we have all the flavors. We have the white honey, we have yellow, we have dark, we have everything. Then the tastes are really different from what you have here. What's we have there it's the multi floral honey mainly because we don't have a special honey from a special tree as it's still traditional. We're doing it in Savannah with a lot of trees blooming and then bees going around to collect nature and pollen and then that's all.

Kirsten: Those are some of the most exciting honeys when the bees are visiting a lot of floral diversity. It changes from season to season and you get some really unique flavors and some complex flavors, which I quite like.

Mazi: Yes, definitely.

Kirsten: Unpredictable at times. In parts of Sub-Saharan Africa, the brownish bird known as the greater honeyguide will lead people to nests of wild living honeybees. When these honey hunters plunder the nest, they often will gift the bird some of the brood combs as a thank you. There are some old texts and also some folklore that describe a similar cooperative relationship between these honey guide birds and honey badgers. I understand you've looked into this in quite a bit of detail. Could you give us some background and describe the animals involved and your research?

Mazi: Since 2015 that has started this topic, looking into this relationship between humans and then the honeyguide birds. In Cameroon, it's still going on, even though it's not like at the beginning because of some moderns beekeeping coming in and then also the urbanization. Now people are much more going to the cities and then living villages. In the past, according to the research, we carry out with colleagues from the University of Bremen, like Martin Gruber, and then my former PhD supervisor, Dr. Bruner.

Up to now there are some tribes in Cameroon that they rely on harvesting honey while they followed the birds. For some tribes, like the boom people, they have a special song. They follow the birds and then while they're just walking through the savannah they are interacting with the bird with a special song, they sing it and then they're going. Sometimes if Sometimes if, for example, a honey hunter want to have or to call the birds then they start either wrestling or they make some noise. Either it will be with knives knocking to the trees and then the birds will come. As soon as the bird arrives, then they will start the interaction.

Kirsten: The birds are learning these songs in effect.

Mazi: Yes, the birds know the song. It's special from one tribe to another one it's totally different, but it's still the same, the meaning is the same. I would take an example from one of the Fulani people, for example, they call it Sabaru. That's the name. The name is Sabaru. The meaning of the song is like, "Come my bird, come my bird. I will harvest and then at the end, I will give you your reward." It's something like that.

Kirsten: Okay, so it's almost like a lullaby that they're interacting. There's this tradition of, "I'm calling you bird. Bird, you're going to show me where I can find the honey and in reward for you making my work easier, I'm going to make your work easier."

Mazi: Exactly. That's how it's being done. Either for Fulani people or the Baya people, they have in their own language, a special song after wrestling. You will hear people shouting on the phone in the savannah and then they will be following it. Nowadays this way of harvesting honey is now disappearing, because the birds, they're still there but they don't communicate anymore with beekeepers, because the beekeepers are not following them anymore. In some parts of Cameroon, it's being now abandoned because of this relationship.

They said that the bird is not only guiding them to bee nest, but to any animals like snakes, all the wild animal. That's something that they don't like it. At the end, they are afraid. I have one of my students that he went last year, they were working and then the bird guided them to a viper. They killed the snake and then, yes, it was delicious for them because they had it before the dinner.

[laughter]

That's how, why this relationship is now, I would say dying, and also the young generation are not taking over. This is the main thing.

Kirsten: I would think to keep this relationship going, you have to interact quite a bit with nature, so that nature learns the songs and it's a behavior that they learn is rewarded so that they keep doing it. If people aren't investing the time because of habitat fragmentation or a change in jobs and traditional ways of life falling away, then this relationship will probably be lost.

Mazi: Exactly. Most of the time also nowadays in our savannas, yes, deforestation is taking over. They're cutting trees.

Kirsten: You're losing a lot of habitats.

Mazi: Yes. Habitat is really a big problem now. Also this agriculture intensification using a lot of chemicals. These are main problems nowadays in beekeeping in general and also honey hunting in particular.

Kirsten: The honey badger itself, can you talk a little bit about what a honey badger does? I would think most of our listeners are probably not that familiar.

Mazi: Honey badger, there is one village called [unintelligible 00:13:53] This also I was there. Then they said, it's the main problem there also because the honey badger sometimes destroyed even the hives to collect honey. This is a big problem. It's another big issue now there, because they said, "All over the savanna, honey badgers are all over there." Then they have some time to go there and then to protect, but they cannot sleep there in the bush.

Kirsten: It's become a real predator for beekeepers.

Mazi: Yes, it's a real big predator. Then they said, if I can help them to find a good solution, because up to now, some people are killing them, but it's not really efficient.

Kirsten: It's probably a little bit like our black bear problem that we have in the US. [laughs]

Mazi: Yes, honey badger is a really serious problem, it's only in that village. In other village, they said, yes, there are also some other birds that destroy also the traditional hives.

Kirsten: Ah, okay.

Mazi: Yes, it's not only honey badger, but also there are some black birds that are really not also good for traditional beekeeping.

Kirsten: Is there a shift away from this traditional beekeeping to more modern methods or are people still holding on?

Mazi: Yes, this is another big issue there because our beekeepers, the majority of our beekeepers, they cannot afford the modern hives because it's really expensive.

Kirsten: Yes, wood, I'm sure, is a commodity.

Mazi: Yes, and for them, they said, I cannot invest that much money because they are not also earning a lot of money from honey. Because, in the villages, all the villages are really remote area where even driving there is not easy. The honey is really not expensive. They are just doing it like, "Okay, I have one liter," for example, one kg or let's say one liter because in in the villages, they don't know kilo kg. It's mainly in liter.

Kirsten: They're selling it by the bottle in effect.

Mazi: Yes, by the bottle, it's not in kg. One bottle like that of one liter, it costs sometimes less than €1.

Kirsten: Less than the US dollar, less than €1, very inexpensive for the amount of work that goes into it.

Mazi: Yes, and you see they cannot also invest like for one top bar hive, the modern one, if you want to have it, let's say it's around €50 to €80 or dollars. It's really expensive for them but the traditional hives, sometimes they get it for free because it's a neighbor who is constructing it. You will say, "Ah, my neighbor, I don't have money now. Could you give me?" They will give for free. It costs less than €1 or $1 if you want to give something to the beekeeper who is constructing this. One beekeeper can have up to 200 hives.

Kirsten: Okay, and so they're hung out in different places throughout the savannah, and they have probably a route where they check them and then they harvest.

Mazi: Yes.

Kirsten: Do they migrate their colonies at all? Do they move them or are they hung up and then they're just left?

Mazi: No, they're just hung there and then they would just come there when they have to harvest. They don't have to come and then visit. No, they don't do that.

Kirsten: Thank you so much for this very interesting look into Cameron beekeeping. We're going to take a quick break now to hear from our sponsor, and then we'll be back with more questions.

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Kirsten: Mazi, you have a long-term collaboration with Bremen in Germany. What keeps bringing you back to Germany? It's the beer, isn't it?

[laughter]

Mazi: Yes, this is really a good question. I would say I deserve everything from Germany. Who I am now today because of Germany. The partnership with the University of Bremen and my university started when I was doing, before even my master, when I started the university, because they started in 2016, 2006.

Kirsten: Wow, that's quite a while.

Mazi: Yes, I was involved when I was doing my master. That's how I started to know about Bremen. Then after I defended my master thesis, my university selected me as one of the students who have to come to Germany. Then when I was in Germany, then I met Dorothea Brueckner, who accepted then to be my PhD supervisor. From there, everything started. Then discussing with her, talking about research.

Then after that, I was really attended so many conferences here in Europe, and then opening my mind about research on bees. Yes, so that's how everything started. I think from this partnership, I learned a lot and I'm still learning a lot. That's how, up to now, I'm still keeping this cooperation flying because we are still in contact with the University of Bremen and from the administration to other colleagues from not only the researchers but also people from anthropology. Because I told you that this research on human honeyguides birds relationship, it was done with people from the anthropology.

Kirsten: Very nice. You're also crossing disciplines and trying to get a cultural perspective in.

Mazi: Yes, that's how everything started. Then up to now, I'm lucky that the University of Bremen is still paying my flight ticket and then my accommodation. Then they said, "Oh, you can come and then continue our research." Up to now, I'm still looking for a partnership to develop it because bee research in Cameroon is still not developed.

Kirsten: It's still in its infancy.

Mazi: Yes. My point is, I'm working in close relation with farmers, and with beekeepers and they are having so many problems. My point is, okay, I should try to help them as far as I can with Germany. That's how I keep this partnership going on and then look for more partnership to try to develop something that will help not only beekeepers but also farmers because beekeeping and farming are really close. That's how I'm still coming to Germany. I want to achieve something good for my country.

Kirsten: What do you think is urgently needed in bee research in your home country? In Germany and in the USA, some of the biggest issues we're facing are Varroa for beekeepers and, of course, habitat loss for other pollinators. What are some of those most pressing problems in Cameroon?

Mazi: In beekeeping perspectives, I think the most pressing problem there is habitat plus because deforestation is going on incredibly. It's really a big problem. Also, this agricultural intensification using the chemicals and also to extend the agricultural farms, they are cutting down a lot of trees.

Kirsten: You're losing your forest to agricultural intensification or also more cash crops. What are the main cash crops that are grown in Cameroon?

Mazi: In the northern part, it's cotton, in the southern part we have cocoa, we have coffee, we have tea, we have palm oil. We have so many cash crops in Cameroon. There are also some other crops like maize groundnuts, beans. Another big problem talking about beekeeping is also-- we don't have problem with Varroa even though I sample some, but our bees are not really suffering from Varroa. The main problem are the beetles.

Kirsten: Small hive beetles.

Mazi: Small hive and large hive beetles.

Kirsten: I'm not familiar with large hive beetles. What are they like?

Mazi: They're larger than small hive beetles. Some are brown, but some are black and then with gray race. There are so many diversity of these beetles in hives. There are also the moth. Galleria it's really another big problem for beekeeping. Of course, all our beekeepers want to have modern beekeeping. Nowadays there are not much trees as in the past, they have to be settled near their hometowns or their villages. They don't have to go far away to do their activities. These are the different problems they're facing up to now.

Kirsten: Do you find that the beekeepers are quite knowledgeable, they know how to manage them or are they just harvesting the honey and doing very little management?

Mazi: Some people they know how to manage because there are so many trainings going on with NGOs. The government also is putting a lot of efforts now to train beekeepers. Last year, for example, I was one of the trainer and then I trained people from four different regions. Cameroon is one of the country where beekeeping is really, really big the main activity, and then the vegetations are really good for beekeeping and we have so many bee plants there. The potential is there.

Then the only thing we need now is to train the beekeepers. Now the government is putting effort on this and then NGOs also are putting a lot of effort there to train beekeepers and then try to train them on using the modern beehives. We have also a modernized traditional beehive because we started from the real traditional beehive and then we modernized the traditional hive that they are using because we thought, "Okay, as we don't have a lot of money, let's work with your own materials but we have to modernize it." Like having two interims, two leads.

Kirsten: You can have access from the back or the front.

Mazi: Yes. This is something that is being done and some beekeepers also are now opening their mind and then to try to improve their traditional hives so that they will have good quality of honey.

Kirsten: Most beekeepers male or do you also have women coming into beekeeping?

Mazi: Not really. It's mainly male.

Kirsten: It's still very male-dominated.

Mazi: There are some few women, but not really in the northern part. Normally what the women do in beekeeping is to sell honey.

Kirsten: They're the ones at the markets trying to--

Mazi: Yes. Many men are in charge to go and then hang the hives and then harvest to do all the processing and then the women will just go to the market.

Kirsten: The honey is extracted or is it sold in the comb?

Mazi: Most of the honey are extracted, most of them. They're not selling honey on combs.

Kirsten: Are they mainly using crushing comb or do they have access to extractors?

Mazi: No, most of them are just crushing combs, we don't have extractors.

Kirsten: That's what I figured.

Mazi: That's why top bar hives are really important there because you don't need the extractor. You just have to crush them and then at the end, you'll have your liquid.

Kirsten: Do you end up with a lot of wax production as well?

Mazi: Yes, a lot of wax. In some villages, the wax are not used. They're just throw away.

Kirsten: Oh, what a shame. It's such a valuable resource.

Mazi: Yes. They don't have any markets. No one will buy it. Some of them are using it for their own-- they don't use it really. Nowadays, I would say like two to three years now in my hometown, there are some Nigerian coming in, and then they're looking for only wax.

Kirsten: There's a big international market for beeswax.

Mazi: Up to now, our, beekeeper--

Kirsten: That has value. [laughs]

Mazi: They don't use it up to now.

Kirsten: Interesting. What did you end up doing your PhD research on?

Mazi: For my PhD pollinators, the pollination diversity of two plants. I worked on cotton and then cashew beans. These are the two plants on which I did my PhD. Then I looked at the diversity of pollinators and then the importance of pollinators on these two crops. How bees can improve, the production of these two crops, because these two crops are really important in the northern part of country.

Kirsten: Is it just the honeybees or are there other pollinators involved?

Mazi: There are so many pollinators. We have a variety of pollinators, but among all the pollinators, honeybee is one of the most important. We have also Xylocopas, we have also a lot of stingless bees and solitary bees. We have also butterflies that are also among the pollinators. In Cameroon, we have a huge diversity of pollinators in general, not only honeybees, but it depends on the plants. Sometimes for some plants, honeybees is not among the pollinators, it's not visiting even the plants.

Kirsten: They have their own preferences and some plants they're more pollinated by solitary bees.

Mazi: Exactly.

Kirsten: Have you guys mapped the diversity of bees in Cameroon? I would imagine there are still quite a lot of gaps.

Mazi: Up to now, not really. We're still working in that direction and I hope that by the nearest feature, maybe we'll have the map of all the pollinators in Cameroon, but this is a long way to go. That's why I'm looking also for collaboration in that field also to know all the pollinators.

Kirsten: It's tough to do the taxonomy of different species, but I'm sure you're on the right way and you're now in a really good group to try and make the context for long-term associations.

Mazi: I hope so. [laughs]

Kirsten: Every guest I have on the show, I always ask them, if you had to choose to be a plant or a pollinator that would represent you, what would you choose?

Mazi: Oh, definitely be a honeybee. [laughs]

Kirsten: You'd be a honeybee. Why a honeybee?

Mazi: The behavior of the honeybee is really something that you learn a lot.

Kirsten: This is true. The social interactions that you can't make on your own. You need to work as a team.

Mazi: Exactly. I can spend like the entire day looking at the bees in the fields. I can work like one to two weeks with beekeepers in the field. I'm not tired. I always enjoy to be with beekeepers. It's one of the organs that I really want to have close to me every day and then that's-- I mean, honeybee is really important.

Kirsten: Mazi, thank you so much for being on the show. It's been a real pleasure, and I've learned so much more about beekeeping in Cameroon. I hope we get to stay in touch and I'm looking forward to you visiting us here in Stuttgart.

Mazi: Thank you very much and I'm looking forward to see you and then to discuss more further in this topic and it was a pleasure for me to talk about beekeeping in Cameroon and new researchers in Cameroon. It's always a pleasure. Thank you very much.

[00:31:10] [END OF AUDIO]